Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

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DarkKman
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:07 am

Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby DarkKman » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:35 am

Hi,

Now I have replaced my laptop HDD with a nice, super-speedy SSD (thanks Dirk) I figured I may as well upgrade my RAM from 4GB to 8GB so I can try out Forte 64bit and get as much out of this laptop as possible. I was using Forte 3 64bit but had some issues so went back to 32bit (I do have Win 7 64bit btw).

With that in mind;
1. Do I need to uninstall the 32bit version or can I run both (Forte 3 32bit and 64bit)?
2. I have jBridge installed currently and can see 2 versions of each VSTi - one named "normally", one appended with [jBridge]. So I use the "normal" named one usually. When I install Forte 3 64bit I know there is an option to "migrate" but which option do I select to ensure I get the 64bit version (if available) i.e. "normal" or appended [jBridge]?
3. How can I tell if the 64bit VSTi is being used if the above is nonsensical (which I appreciate is perfectly possible)?

Sorry for what I'm sure are noob questions. I did read the manual and have previously installed Forte 3 64bit so am aware of the "migrate" option but don't really understand all the 32/64 bit stuff and just want to know that I'm using the optimal version of Forte and VSTi to make use of the (pending) RAM upgrade.

Thanks in advance (and noob-insults will be humbly accepted) :D

Volker Grosch
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 11:29 am
Location: Germany

Re: Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby Volker Grosch » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:20 pm

Hi DarkMan,

First off: you can keep both versions (x86 and x64) installed parallel. Concerning jbridge, 64Bit Host, 64Bit Plugs, SSDs and increasing RAM: this cannot be answered clearly without some background information and I´m not really clear what you want to do, so I try a general explanation and give you some examples.

RAM problems are an issue with forte, when you are using Sample-Player like Halion, Kontakt or Omnisphere. This is due to the fact that x86 OS can only allocate about 3 and a bit GBytes of RAM, implementing more RAM is absolutely sensless. Even jbridge would not be able to change this situation.

A step into the right direction is using an x64 OS (what you allready have done). Here applications can use the whole RAM available - if they are able to. With an x64 application (f.e. Forte x64) this is absolutely possible. Now there are still 2 possible problems: x86 applications are not able to use more than (here I`m am not pretty shure :oops: ) 2GBytes of RAM. To use the whole RAM with x86 applications means you have to have more than one application. The other possible problem: the host is x64 and some of your plugs are x86.

Now it`s time for jbridge: this little helper "wrappes" plugs into a host application of its own and forte handles this wrapper as a plugin with 2 advantages:
1) jbridge is able to transform a x86 plugin into x64 plugins for forte
2) jbridge is an application of it`s own and is (even if only wrapping an x86 plugin in a x86 host) able to allocate 2GBytes or more of RAM separately for this plugin (and again up to 2GBytes for ever additional jbridged plug).

If you ask: "is it really necessary to have so much RAM available for a single scene in Forte, I`d say: no, this was not really a problem at all for me

The reason behind concerns load time of songs: using lots of sample sounds means you have to load the samples at the moment when you call up your scene. This can lead to load times of several seconds. Using an SSD and activating the backgroundload function in Kontakt f.e. means load times decrease dramatically. The other problem could be that (specially with Kontakt) Forte sometimes seems to crash when loading the content.

There is a special strategy implemented in Forte (Do not use Scene plugin configuration). In simple words: load all the samples you need for a whole show into the sampler and call them up by using Program Changes in the Scene Command window. The advantage: very low load times as no data has to be transferred but probably a huge amount of RAM memory to hold all the samples available. It`s pretty clear: using Forte x64 & x64 Plugins can simply solve this problem (if you have enough RAM available). In this situation jbridge is able to jbridge all the plugs only available as x86 versions (any x64 plugs shouls of cours be uses as "normal" plugs).

If there are reasons for not using Forte x64 (f.e. stability reasons) jbridge is again able to help you: you are able to use Forte x86 and "isolate" RAM-hungry plugs. This works with x64 plugs but even wrapping an x86 plugin into a x86 host makes sense as the wrapped plug works as an application of it`s own an is so able to allocate up to 2GBytes of RAM again.

To be honest: if you are using only algorithmic plugs there is no real reason for using x64 (I did never observe a theoretical possible increase in performance for x64 applications or plugs). Even when using sample players you should have a closer look to stability and loadtimes before unsing unnecessary wrapping of plugs. Btw.: the memory information can give you a good hint on the need of such methods.

Hope this could make things a little bit clearer,

good luck and kind regards, Volker :wink:
hosts: Forte 4, AuxBusFaders, Cubase 8, Cantabile 2, Live9, jBridge
VSTis: u-he, Spectrasonics, NI, GSi, Synthogy, East West, TAL, Adam Szabo, Steinberg...
VSTs: u-he, Voxengo, Fabfilter, Lexicon, TB, PSP, NI, UVI, Waves,...

Dirk Offringa
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Re: Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby Dirk Offringa » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:44 pm

Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

MikeG
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Re: Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby MikeG » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:24 pm

Done
----------------
Mike (brainspawn)
www.brainspawn.com/support

PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

DarkKman
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:07 am

Re: Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby DarkKman » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:26 am

Thanks Volker/Dirk... I had forgotten about that 3Gb switch. I have that on my desktop studio (Win XP) so could have perhaps tried that before adding the RAM. As I have already ordered an upgrade from 4GB to 8GB I'll wait and see how the RAM expansion/Forte x64 works out for me. It was fairly cheap (~£25) and guess that extra RAM isn't going to hurt (right?)...

Volker your explanation has helped a lot so thank you. The reason for wanting to try out Forte x64 again is I do have a few x64 plugins (Kontakt, Alchemy, Battery, Absynth) so figure I can make use of all the RAM available and use jBridge to "wrap" the x86 plugins.

The main VSTis I suspect of being particularly RAM hungry are Kontakt and Battery, and also EnergyXT.
I use eXT to run backing tracks (usually between 4 and 20 stereo tracks, 16bit, 44kHz) - the SSD has helped here enormously. As eXT is x86 I guess the additional RAM won't help any further (however if I understand what you said, jBridge will allow a full 2GB RAM for eXT when wrapped as it is an application in its own right so won't eat up RAM from other VSTi's - have I understood this correctly?) so while not helping directly, the extra RAM will be available to the rest of the applications.

I assume, also, from what you said that in Forte x64, the "bridged" [jBridge] VSTi's will be the x86 ones and the x64 plugins will be listed as normal (this makes sense now - so the opposite from what I see using Forte x84).

I guess once I get it all working (hopefully better luck this time) I will just listen for any weird Drive/RAM/CPU artefacts, watch the resource monitor and see what happens...

RAM arrives tomorrow so will upgrade to Forte x64 again after that and let you know how I get on.

Thanks again for all your help. You are a great group of helpful people and it is very much appreciated :D

Volker Grosch
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 11:29 am
Location: Germany

Re: Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby Volker Grosch » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:37 am

Hi Darkman,

glad we could be of some help. From what you describe the setup I would try would exactly be as you describe it: using the x64 Forte version and all plugs you have available as x64 versions. Only those you don`t have as x64 have to be wrapped in jbridge. Also concerning extra RAM and eXT: it was meant exactly the way you describe it and the advantage would be to have a separate "RAM unit" of 2GBytes only for eXT. An extra RAM really won`t hurt that much (I think RAM costs are not that high atm), so go for it.

Another question was, how to distinguish x64 native plugs from their jbridged copies. This is very simple as Forte x64 won`t show x86 plugs. So the plugs without the jbridge annex are native x64. Btw: for me the automatic integration of jbridge is not so useful as I do it in another way: you probably know it`s possible to create a wrapped version of a plugin by using this little <name>.64.dll file coming with jbridge. So I only create copies for those plugs I really want to show up as wrapped versions and leave any other plug untouched. The advantage is you will only see those plugs that really needed to be wrapped.

O.k. so far from here,

kind regards, Volker
hosts: Forte 4, AuxBusFaders, Cubase 8, Cantabile 2, Live9, jBridge
VSTis: u-he, Spectrasonics, NI, GSi, Synthogy, East West, TAL, Adam Szabo, Steinberg...
VSTs: u-he, Voxengo, Fabfilter, Lexicon, TB, PSP, NI, UVI, Waves,...

DarkKman
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:07 am

Re: Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby DarkKman » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:12 pm

Thanks for the confirmation of distinguishing the names from jBridged and not-jBridged.

I'll probably leave Forte to do the jBridging to begin with - I only installed jBridge for use with Forte anyway so not really "used" it any other way but if I struggle I will try what you suggest.

Thanks again for the support... Loving Forte so much - don't know how I ever coped without it!

DarkKman
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:07 am

Re: Re-Upgrade to Forte3 64 and jBridge

Postby DarkKman » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:16 pm

Well got ALMOST everything working but hit a snag with some of my x64 VSTi's being "ignored"... I've posted here as its off topic really from the above but pretty happy so far :)


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