Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

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tekhedd
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Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:11 pm

Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby tekhedd » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:11 pm

I've noticed that Kontakt 5 will crash if you assign a MIDI control to "next/previous patch" and then press it quickly two or three times. I have reproduced this with forte 3 and the 4.0.1 beta.

The obvious workaround is to check "Disconnect this instrument when loading scene data", which does seem to prevent the immediate crash, but then Forte hangs for 2 to 5 minutes after changing patches. So, apparently Kontakt 5 also does not like being disconnected, or perhaps is doing some sort of heavyweight internal cleanup every time.

These are bugs in Kontakt, most likely, but I thought I'd report them here too in case there is a workaround.

In the sort term, I will simply be very careful when loading patches.

Burtan
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby Burtan » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:50 am

I think the safest way to use Kontakt is to use just one big patch, although it is not as easy to manage.

tekhedd
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby tekhedd » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:26 am

Yes, I was thinking about controlling kontakt entirely through midi program change.

I also sent a bug report to NI, who acknowledge that they know about the bug/interaction and may fix it in a future release. Which didn't sound entirely promising.

Nice samples; shame about the instability.

Volker Grosch
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby Volker Grosch » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:25 pm

Hi tekhedd,

first off: I only own Kontakt 4 but the described problems sound very familiar to me. Till today I was not able to use Kontakt in the way you describe due to crash scenarios. I really made lots of attempts to fix this – sometimes I thought I got it but then again: a crash. Meanwhile I`ve given up on this and found a strategy for me:

I only use Kontakt with fixed instruments in it and with „Do not set per-Scene plugin configuration...“ chosen in Scene Commands

For some applications it`s useful to load a number of instruments into Kontakt (specially if you want to have available a bunch of variations of the same instrument) and give each a midi channel of it`s own. This works very well for instruments like Mark I, A200,... The trick is that multiple instances of the same instrument really don`t need much additional performance. Chosing a certain variation means routing one of the 16 corrsponding midi channels to kontakt.

For other applications it`s useful to use Kontakt banks (there is a video describing how to do this somewhere on youtube). Calling up different sounds needs program changes in this case.

The drawback for all of these scenarios is you have to be able to keep all the sample data in RAM. Dependent on the amount of samples this can lead to forte 64 or / and jbridge with other instabilities and problems (but extremly fast program-changes btw.).

So my personal decision at the moment is to only use as many Kontakt instruments as absultely inevitable und stick to forte 32.

Concerning “Bug in Kontakt“: I for my part keep in mind that VSTis are not originally created and definded for use on stage (which doesn`t mean it would not be possible). Live hosts like forte have to do very special (and from a sequencer developers point of view obviously strange) strategies to handle live needs. What we try to do here with Kontakt would mean for a sequencer:

it`d have to load another instance of an instrument during PLAY operation (and reload the old one back each time when using REWIND)...

I`m not aware that any sequencer would be able to handle something like this. For me this means: I don`t blame NI for this (but would of cause be as happy as you probably were if this could be fixed one day).

Only my 2 cents, regards, Volker
hosts: Forte 4, AuxBusFaders, Cubase 8, Cantabile 2, Live9, jBridge
VSTis: u-he, Spectrasonics, NI, GSi, Synthogy, East West, TAL, Adam Szabo, Steinberg...
VSTs: u-he, Voxengo, Fabfilter, Lexicon, TB, PSP, NI, UVI, Waves,...

snowbird122
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby snowbird122 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:56 pm

This is happening to me as well. What I don't understand is that fast scene changes work just fine which clicking Forte with a mouse, but when doing it through midi, Kontact immediately crashes every time. This seems like a Forte bug rather than a NI bug.

MikeG
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby MikeG » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:31 pm

This is troubling - K5 should be stable. I found the crash report. The crash does happen within K5 where I don't have visibility into it.
----------------
Mike (brainspawn)
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PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

snowbird122
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby snowbird122 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:07 pm

Thanks for looking into this, Mike. Is there any further info I can provide, or anything else I can do to help you debug it? K5 is going to be a pretty popular VST that you're going to want to have stable performance with.

evilantal
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby evilantal » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:41 am

I'm also experiencing something similar...

I'm trying to use Kontakt by loading instruments into it that are completely purged (ie samples load while playing in realtime through disk streaming). This works well and flicking through scenes using the buttons or pedal routed to "next scene" works as well.

However, when I trim the rack, forte hangs. No crash report. I have to end the process in task manager. It seems to happen on a particular that has a bit more Kontakt instruments loaded than the rest.
Kontakt doesn't seem to like having to load patches quickly and the quickly on to the next.
Lenovo Z500, quad core i7 3632QM, 16GB 1600MHz DDR3, RME BabyFace, Samsung EVO SSD x2, forte 4, Kawai ES100, Kurzweil PC2, VB3, Alchemy, Kontakt 5, Omnisphere 2, Diva, ZebraHZ, Bazille, Pianoteq 5 Standard, Falcon, various effects

MikeG
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby MikeG » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:40 pm

Can you make this happen on a new rack with only one instance of K5?
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Mike (brainspawn)
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PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

snowbird122
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby snowbird122 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:59 am

Yes.

Tonight I created a new rack and added one instrument of Kontakt 5.3.1. I created a scene with New York Piano and a second scene with Vienna piano. I then set up some of the pads on my midi controller to switch to the next and previous scenes. I was able to change between the two scenes as fast as I wanted with no issues. I then added a third scene with Alicia Keys. The first time I switched quickly between scenes, I got the usual crash screen and Forte shut down.

This was on a fresh new rack with one virtual instrument (Kontakt) and three scenes.

Let me know if I can provide any further information that is helpful for debugging. I really would like to have this fixed.

Thanks so much, Mike.

MikeG
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby MikeG » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:24 pm

Can you make this fail with the rack stress test or does it have to be external scene change?

And how are you causing the scene changes? Through MIDI scene change automation?
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Mike (brainspawn)
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PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

snowbird122
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby snowbird122 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:38 pm

Here are the steps I took for the first test:
1. Open Forte to a blank new rack
2. Add Kontakt as a new instrument
3. Create a scene with New York Piano
4. Create a separate scene with Vienna piano
5. Stress test rack for 1 minute at default settings

The stress test crashed within 10 seconds each time.

Here are the steps I took for the first second test:
1. Same first four steps from above
2. Use Basic Scene Automation to set up pads on my midi controller to advance forward and backward through the two scenes
3. When I use the midi controller to change scenes quickly and play midi notes at the same time, it crashes right away.

Here is the crash error message. There was no error message in the first test.
http://i.imgur.com/xQOvn5N.png

tekhedd
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby tekhedd » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:16 pm

I finally had time, so I thought I would work around the problem by loading all of my samples into a Kontakt "bank" and using program change commands. It started out good.

However, I'm now getting an exception when I try to save the bank...if I have more than 4 instruments loaded in the bank. I can remove the 5th entry from the bank and it will save, but if I add any other synth I get the "Generated an exception when asked for the size of its save data". I can only assume that the save data becomes too large? This is with Forte 3.2.16 and Kontakt 5.3.1.37, 32-bit.

I guess I'll try to reproduce the problem with a new, empty bank.

I don't *really* want to rebuild my rack configurations from scratch, again. :( (I've done it a couple times now because "trim" just seems to corrupt the rack!)

MikeG
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby MikeG » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:44 pm

Is it possible you are running into a memory problem? 32 bit Forte can be memory constrained.
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PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

tekhedd
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Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:11 pm

Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby tekhedd » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:10 pm

Memory size limitation seems likely. Trying it now.

tekhedd
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby tekhedd » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:12 pm

As a followup, I have now moved my rack to Forte 3/64, and combined all of the Kontakt patches into one big rack. This *still* occasionally gives the "exception when asked for the size of its data" error when saving, but only rarely. It is highly stable, but Forte does crash on exit (sometimes) and during stress tests (after about 20 minutes).

The same rack loaded into Forte 4/64 crashes on save, but only if I modify something in Kontakt. (have already sent in bug reports).

I'm starting to wonder if Kontakt is going to be usable in the long term here.

evilantal
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby evilantal » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:45 am

Well...it's definitely usable. I use it every day.
Only I use a method where I load everything into one Kontakt instance at rack load and only switch sounds by sending program change messages to Kontakt. I use one instance with 3 Instrument Banks. I switch between sounds by sending Bank+PC change messages. This still leaves me plenty of options for layering. Like so...

Kontakt Multi
> Bank 0, MIDI channel 1
>> Number of instruments loaded (about 10 I think)
> Bank 1, MIDI channel 2
>> Number of instruments
> Bank 2, MIDI channel 3
>> Number of instruments
Lenovo Z500, quad core i7 3632QM, 16GB 1600MHz DDR3, RME BabyFace, Samsung EVO SSD x2, forte 4, Kawai ES100, Kurzweil PC2, VB3, Alchemy, Kontakt 5, Omnisphere 2, Diva, ZebraHZ, Bazille, Pianoteq 5 Standard, Falcon, various effects

tekhedd
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:11 pm

Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby tekhedd » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:05 pm

That exactly describes my setup. I have been using a single instance of Kontakt with three (no, now 4) instrument banks, which change patches only with program change and a fixed preload size. As long as I never need to save, this is very stable.

Since the latest update I have not made many changes to the rig (day job) but I think it may be fixed in the latest releases. As a precaution, I *always* save the instrument rack as an external save file before saving in forte, and if I see the data block-size error I do *not* save in Forte, as this tends to result in corrupted pan/fade within the banks. A 6dB gain offset is the kind of thing you only notice on stage, so I don't take chances any more.

peterhughes
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Re: Kontakt 5.3.x crash on changing patches or disconnect

Postby peterhughes » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:04 am

Stress-testing my rack with Kontakt included, causes Forte to crash on the first scene change. When I remove Kontakt then there's no crash.


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