Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

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Burtan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:35 pm

Hi,

I'm using Kontakt 4 as my sampler. For E-Piano sounds I use Scarbee Vintage Keys. I want to recall the FX parameters of these instruments with scenes. To do this I'm sending Host Automation ID init signals to Kontakt 4 on scene changes. In Kontakt I have mapped these Host Automation ID's to the parameters of my instrument's FX. The problem is that the GUI recalls the parameter correctly but the parameter itself is not changed, just the GUI. When changing the parameter via Midi CC (which is mapped to the same Host Automation ID) and not on scene change, everything is working fine.

I've also created a thread in the NI forums


Thanks for your help!
Best regards,
BurtaN

Dirk Offringa
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Dirk Offringa » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:03 pm

Hi,

could you please explain what "Host Automation ID init signals " are?

Also: If the GUI changes, then the plugin receives the correct information: in VST 2.4 it is indeed the VST plugin that "informs" the GUI that a parameter has changed so that it can update accordingly. Not the host. I don't see what forte can do to solve this!. Looks like a Kontakt bug IMO.

Thanks
Dirk
Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

Burtan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:22 am

In the midi editing area of a plugin you can route the Midi CCs to other Midi CCs or Host Automation IDs. You can also create an init value which is sent at the beginning of the scene. That's what I mean by Host Automation ID init signals. Sorry If I were unclear.
I agree that it's probably a bug of Kontakt, I'm just wondering that everything works if I send Midi CCs manually (from a midi controller) which is then routed to the Host Automation ID.
So basically, what is the difference between Forte sending the values at a scene change and Forte sending it, when I manually send Midi CCs. Perhaps that it is all at once?

hisdudeness

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby hisdudeness » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:48 am

Hi Burtan,

I don`t get your issue completely but what I understand so far is that your aim is to use the Scarbee Rhodes with different effects on different scenes, right?

I`m using the Scarbee Rhodes as well and doing well with using different effects on the same Scarbee instrument. I`ve choosen this way:
Setup the Kontakt instrument module not to load samples on each scene change and create within Kontakt a new instrument bank.
Then load the Scarbee instruments as often as you need them into different bank slots. In my case I`ve loaded twice the Mark I (since I use it with two different effects), once the A200 and once the Clavinet.
Now if you double click on the bank slot you`ll see the different edit options for the loaded instrument. On the page "Script Editor" you will find the instrument options with the effect section. Do your changes there and go on for the next bank slot.
Finally you have to go to "Scene Commands" on that Kontakt 4 instrument module and enter the appropriate Midi PCs on the correct midi channel for Forte switching between the different bank slots with every scene (those Midi PCs on that instrument tab calles "Scene Commands" will be processed with every different Forte scene changes while the samples in Kontakt won`t be loaded.)

Ok, now you might think if you load 6 times the Mark 1 on 6 different bank slots this might slower down your load time of the Forte rack but it doesn`t at all! I just created a test rack with a Kontakt bank with 6x Mark 1, each with a different effect setup. When Forte starts the Kontakt loading page shows 6 instruments to be loaded but it will load just one and then your Forte rack is ready to play!

And another great benefit: When changing scenes you won`t have any load time of Scarbee samples at all!

Let me know if you have any other questions!

Best regards
hd

Burtan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:23 am

Hi hisdudeness,

thanks for your suggestion :). Curiously I've already done this with Kore as I had problems with recalling parameters in Kontakt as well (but that's another story). However, I've left this idea because each instrument needs RAM for effects etc. as well and as I'm already close on hitting the 32bit limit, I can't afford 10-20 mb per instrument (actually most of my RAM is not addressed by samples but by other instrument needs).

Back to the topic, I was able to specify the problem. Kontakt just seems to be able to process a limited amount of inputs at a time. This seems to be about 20. So when sending more than 20 init signals at a scene change, each above 20 is cut and not processed. This could be solved by creating a minimal amount of onset, when Forte sends it init signals or by improving Kontakt's signal processing.

Best regards,
BurtaN

Dirk Offringa
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Dirk Offringa » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:55 am

Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

Dirk Offringa
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Dirk Offringa » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:05 am

Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

Burtan
Posts: 463
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:23 am


Dirk Offringa
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Dirk Offringa » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:24 pm

What are your buffer settings?

Dirk
Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

Burtan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:53 pm

96 samples, 44100 kHz - RME Babyface

Dirk Offringa
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Dirk Offringa » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:28 am

If you double this value (for testing of course) does that allow for the whole set of 32 parameter changes to complete?

Dirk
Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

Burtan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:06 am

The recall in Massive seems to be fine. Kontakt is not acting better with 256 or 2048 samples.

Dirk Offringa
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Dirk Offringa » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:42 am

Then it's a Kontakt bug, I'm almost certain of that now. (Or a Kontakt configuration issue, but I don't own it so I can't tell)

Dirk
Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

Burtan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:30 pm

I've just test EHCo and it works fine when adding some "waits" of ca. 50ms after each 10 midi messages. When sending all 32 messages at once, I'll get the same results as with Forte itself.
Therefore Kontakt is just able to process about 15 midi messages at once, wooheaa :D

And NI technical support is really terrible at the moment... I've got some requests open since a month.

At least support is fine here :)
Thank you again, Dirk, for clarifying this issue!

Volker Grosch
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Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Volker Grosch » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:53 pm

hosts: Forte 4, AuxBusFaders, Cubase 8, Cantabile 2, Live9, jBridge
VSTis: u-he, Spectrasonics, NI, GSi, Synthogy, East West, TAL, Adam Szabo, Steinberg...
VSTs: u-he, Voxengo, Fabfilter, Lexicon, TB, PSP, NI, UVI, Waves,...

hisdudeness

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby hisdudeness » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:20 am

Hi Volker,

yes it`s the same bug here with my setup! At first sight it`s a bit annoying but I can live with it.

I guess that Kontakt is missing there some special kind of "wallpaper" subfolder where a graphic file should exists to paint the gui.

Best regards
hd

Volker Grosch
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 11:29 am
Location: Germany

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Volker Grosch » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:14 am

Hi hd,

thanks for the info (already thought I`d be kind of stupid not getting this fixed). :)

kind regards, Volker
hosts: Forte 4, AuxBusFaders, Cubase 8, Cantabile 2, Live9, jBridge
VSTis: u-he, Spectrasonics, NI, GSi, Synthogy, East West, TAL, Adam Szabo, Steinberg...
VSTs: u-he, Voxengo, Fabfilter, Lexicon, TB, PSP, NI, UVI, Waves,...

Dirk Offringa
Posts: 3508
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:44 am
Location: Sainte Anastasie, France
Contact:

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Dirk Offringa » Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:15 am

[quote="hisdudeness"
I guess that Kontakt is missing there some special kind of "wallpaper" subfolder where a graphic file should exists to paint the gui.
[/quote]

Hi,

Unless you're talking about a user-skinnable instrument, most of the time the GUI graphical elements are either drawed programmatically, or the graphics (bmp's, png's...)are embedded in the binary. There are some utilities that can display and edit those ressources that you can download from the web. If I had Kontakt, I'd check if the graphic ressources are embedded.

Both of these problems are very very strange. This really looks like amateurish work, not at all on par with NI's reputation and status. In fact, as I mentioned in another thread, I suspect NI and other companies actually being very busy porting their core code base to VST3. VST3 is still immature, IMHO. But the SDK includes a wrapper, so that VST3 code can be compiled as VST2.4 plugins. This is going to lead to a whole lot of these sort of glitches appearing in the next few months. You should really put pressure on these companies' tech support to stress test their wrapped 2.4 plugins, instead of just putting them on the market as a bonus release. Currently 2.4 is mainstream, not VST3. Of course I might be wrong, but I just can't imagine anything else.

I think that both of the problems mentioned here (the midi input queue and the missing GUI parts) could be VST3-to-2.4 wrapper bugs, or in the case of the missing GUI, a missing preprocessor directive or missing library path in their compiler settings. Then again, I might be wrong, but....

Dirk
Life would be much easier if I had the source code.

Burtan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Scarbee Vintage Keys - Effect Recall [Kontakt4]

Postby Burtan » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:39 am

The missing GUI wallpaper just appears when using instrument banks. This bug exists as long I've been using instrument banks.


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