Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

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Amyris

Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:34 pm

Hi there,

I recently bough the Arturia Minimoog Plugin and put it into my Forte rack. Since then I am experiencing Forte and the whole PC to crash at various times. It do not only crashes while editing the Moog or playing it but it also crashes from time to time while opening menues in other plugins and/or Forte itself and even while doing nothing (the whole PC hangs up itself completely).

Does anybody have experienced something like this? It has to be something to do with the Minimoog plugin because the PC and Forte did run perfectly stable before installing this plugin.

I use the following configuration:
AMD Opteron 180 socket 939 dual-core CPU
Asus A8V-VM mainboard
2 GB DDR-RAM (2x 1 GB)
nVidia Geforce 8500GT graphic card
Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 3
eMagic AMT8 Midi-Interface
Hoontech DSP2000 Audio-Interface
Forte 1.6.96.1152
EHCo 1.1.12.120

Plugins:
Arturia Minimoog V ver. 1.6
Arturia Prophet V ver. 1.2.1
Spectrasonics Atmosphere ver. 1.2
G-Media M-Tron (actual version - don't know the exakt version right now)
Native Instruments B4 II organ ver. 2.0.4
discoDSP HighLife Sampler
BuzMaxi3 Freeware limiter
Waves Metaflanger

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:25 pm

Here's what I have tried yet without having success:
- changing RAM
- changing graphic card from onboard graphic to a nVidia Geforce graphics card and deactivating onboard graphics
- completely reinstall Windows with the newest drivers (and of course with chipset drivers and the AMD opteron dual-core driver as well)

Question:
Could this be caused by the Opteron dual-core cpu? I did already uncheck the "use all cpu cores" in Forte, but this has no effect on the crashes. But I am asking this because in another thread I already mentioned, that the EHCo plugin generates hanging notes with my hardware synths when the "use all cpu cores" option is active.
Is there anything known if Forte and/or the Aturia Minimoog plugin have problems with dual-cores or only Opterons?

umd
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:31 am

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby umd » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:03 pm

Hi, Amyris.

I use a dual-core opteron with forte, but haven't experienced any stuck notes, if it helps sorting out the cause of your problem (btw, I do not use any usb midi device).

Your machine crashing without doing nothing is indeed intriguing, check if it's not a hardware problem, test your ram with this:

http://www.memtest.org/

Also, what power supply unit are you using?
Last edited by umd on Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Free midi plugins .

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:23 pm

Hi umd,

the RAM is ok so far. I have already tested it with Memtest (and also I replaced it with two 1 GB RAMs from another manufacturer, also tested failure free with memtest).
My power supply is an beQuiet 420W power supply. I really do not think it's the power supply because the crashes really only began after installing the Moog. There was never a crash before it.

But maybe I'm getting a little bit behind the error:
Today I deactivated the second core of the CPU by using the "/onecpu 1" flag in the Windows boot.ini file. And there was no hanging note and no crash during the whole band rehearsal this evening. I am checking this further over the next few days. But of course this would be a sad thing, because then I cannot use the full power of my cpu.

MikeG
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Location: Houston, TX, USA
Contact:

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby MikeG » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Another thing to try is to enable all CPUs in Windows, but disable it in Forte itself (preferences screen). Uncheck "Use All Available CPUs".

That said, I have MM 1.6 and have not seen any of these symptoms. I care alot about this plug, so if anyone else can repro that, please do so.

Finally, how does it crash? Does it Bluescreen/Reboot the PC, or is there a crash dump in your log file I can look at?

Mike
----------------
Mike (brainspawn)
www.brainspawn.com/support

PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:12 pm

Hi mgarrett,

sadly the "use all available CPUs" does not have any effect on the crashes. The PC does not crash more or less often if this option is active or inactive (I've already tried that).

When crashing there is never a bluescreen, neither a reboot. The whole PC simply hangs up itself. This means: mouse cursor is freezing completely, no sound, no more reactions to keyboard inputs, a soft reset by pressing CTRL+ALT+DEL is also not possible any more.
While still using the onboard graphics of my mainboard the whole screen was also filled with graphical mess when the crash occurs (+ the system did not react any more as described above). Now after switching to a native graphics card (nVidia Geforce 8500GT) and deactivating onboard graphics in the BIOS there are no graphical errors any more but the PC hangs up itself as described.

I will check the Forte log file for any crash dump as soon as possible (most likely tomorrow) and will give feedback. Thank you for your quick answers!!! ;-)


P.S.: Maybe I am experiencing a hardware failure in the second CPU core...hm just thinking because I also experiencing these hanging notes with EHCo if the "use all available CPUs" option is active (and the second core is active under Windows as well) which no one else with a dual-core system seems to have until now. Or maybe it's the driver of my emagic AMT8 interface (because it is not manufactured any more and the driver of it maybe is not able to deal with dual-core CPUs... but on the other hand I am sure that Mark Kelly would have mentioned this already because he also uses this interface (and as far as I know uses also a dual-core system)... strange...

umd
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:31 am

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby umd » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:54 pm

If you suspect the cpu, this program will do nicely for testing it:

http://www.ocbase.com/perestroika_en/index.php?Download

The 30m test should be enough for evaluating its stability, since in normal operation the cpu never gets that amount of usage.
Free midi plugins .

MikeG
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Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:56 am
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Contact:

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby MikeG » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:24 pm

What you are describing certainly doesn't sound like any sort of normal application failure. I'd be inclined toward audio driver, MIDI driver, or perhaps a software license protection device.
----------------
Mike (brainspawn)
www.brainspawn.com/support

PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:59 am

So that is also mainly the direction I am thinking now because both the Hoontech DSP2000 audio interface and the emagic AMT8 midi interface as well are not manufactured any more and both drivers were written before dual-core CPUs were produced.
So maybe they are both incapable of working stable with dual-core CPUs. Only strange thing is that this crash-problem only occurs since the Moog is installed. But yes maybe I should change to a newer audio and midi-interface.

[edit] I've just seen that the Windows 2000 driver that I use for my emagic AMT midi interface is also the right driver for useage with Windows XP. I also use the latest version of this driver ("unidrv227" from 10th October 2005).

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:54 pm

Hi mgarret,

I've send you my Forte log-file by PM!

pedrosura
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:44 pm

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby pedrosura » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:47 pm

I have the same problem. Windows XP, AMD Athlon X2 4800 Pro, 2 gb ram, dual core. My audio PCI Audiophile 2496

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm

Sadly the replacement of my old audio interface (now I've got a Presonus Firepod) did not solve the problem.

@pedrosura:
What mainboard do you use (manufacturer, chipset). Mine is an ASUS A8V-VM with VIA K8M890 chipset (newest CPU, chipset, graphic and audio drivers of course).


The only workaround that works for me is currently to switch off the second CPU core in the Windows boot.ini.

pedrosura
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:44 pm

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby pedrosura » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:57 pm

How do you turn off the other CPU? I have not done anything to the Windows.ini file. Has anyone gotten back to you about the error?. I also have the CS-80 and the Modular Moog and those are very stable. Minimoog is the only one that gives me the headache. And it's too bad, it's probably my favorite VST. It sounds like something about the dual core is making it crash. I'm assuming you also have Windows XP Sp2?

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:14 pm

Hi, simply open your boot.ini file and add the following line:

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Simulated SingleCore" /onecpu 1 /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn /PAE /usepmtimer


BUT:
During the last days I had to recognize that this "workaround" does not fix the crash. It simply dows not happen that often any more but it still does happen! Therefor the system is currently unusable for live performances. It seems that the crashes only occur after actually playing the Minimoog in a song (after playing the whole system will run for quite a few minutes or even up to half an hour and then crashes - but it does not crash if the Minimoog is muted and is not being played since the last Windows start - weird).

Therefor I will change my whole system for a test:
I have another different mainboard and another different dual-core AMD cpu with different RAM and I will put these things into my system and I am quite excited about what will happen.

Oh and no, I am using Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 3!

Mark Kelly
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Mark Kelly » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:25 am

Just to add to the confusion, I've been working with a new Quad Core PC and I've been getting the note hanging in Echo that you mentioned. It only seems to happen when multiple instances of EHCo are loaded. Now, I've still got my old Dual Core machine and it doesn't do it with that. I've tried to rule out the AMT8 MIDI interface as the cause (as you mentioned, the drivers are OLD) by running the midi through the Delta 1010. Now admittedly the drivers I'm using for that are pretty old too but it still does the note hanging thing with multiple versions of EHCo running.

Now here's the funny thing which doesn't make much sense to me. If I turn off "Use all available CPUs" and restart Forte, it behaves itself even with multiple copies of EHCo running. Then when I switch back to using all CPUs it still behaves. Eh? BUT If I restart the computer then the problem reappears when all CPUs are being used. Disable all CPUs and then re-enable them and the problem is gone until the next windows restart. I did this a number of times to make sure I wasn't mistaken.

Mike, any thoughts?

BTW I am running the Arturia Minimoog in this rack with no problems.

PS I realise that this post probably doesn't belong here (sorry Mike) I recall I had a similar problem in 2006 and I posted about it under the subject "Notes Hanging with EHCo"

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:00 pm

Hi Mark,

just want to say that this also confused me: Hanging notes when using multiple instances of EHCo, then switching off the "use all CPU cores" option: no hanging notes. Switching the option on again: Still no hanging notes any more. Restarting the whole PC: hanging notes again. This is exactly the same what happens with my system AND now of course the complete system crashes AFTER using the Minimoog plugin (and NO crashes if the plugin is muted AND is not being used since the Windows start).

MikeG
Posts: 3936
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:56 am
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Contact:

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby MikeG » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:55 pm

Have you run the midi loopback test in the latest version of EHCo?
----------------
Mike (brainspawn)
www.brainspawn.com/support

PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

pedrosura
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:44 pm

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby pedrosura » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:39 pm

The only issue I have is that when I open the Minimoog console several times the Frote program crashes. It does happen unless I open the console. I really love Forte. Itls an incredible program. It's very powerfull. I hope the cause of this is found because I want to use it live. I am hesitating at the moment. It has a lot of potential.

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:32 pm

Hello there,

last weekend I replaced my mainboard, CPU and RAM (Asus A8V-VM out, Asus A8V-Deluxe in; Opteron 180 dual-core out, Athlon64 X2 4600+ dual-core in, 2x 1GB RAM replaced by 2x 1GB RAM from another manufacturer).

AND: Today the whole system was working WITH the Minimoog plugin and WITHOUT any crashes and without hanging notes. So therefor the crashes had something to do with the other mainboard and the other CPU (Asus A8V-VM with the Opteron CPU). I do not think it was the RAM modules because they were changed before this big change without any positive effect.

pedrosura
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:44 pm

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby pedrosura » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:51 pm


MikeG
Posts: 3936
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:56 am
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Contact:

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby MikeG » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:01 am

Yes please! Email it to support_at_brainspawn_dot_com.

This bug is logged for investigation.

Mike
----------------
Mike (brainspawn)
www.brainspawn.com/support

PLEASE NOTE that the forum is not monitored as frequently as the support site above. This forum is intended primarily as a way for users to ask other users questions about the use of Forte.

pedrosura
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:44 pm

Changing the skin solved the problem on my computer

Postby pedrosura » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:29 am

I reinstalled Minimoog with Skin #1 and the problem went away. Try that.... Pedro

Amyris

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby Amyris » Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:48 pm

Interesting. I had the Minimoog installed with the 2nd skin - the bright wooden one. As I said before, now I've changed my hardware completly and the problem also went away - I still use the 2nd skin by the way.

And:
Now I think the problem was more likely a failure on the mainboard. After changing my hardware I used the old mainboard here at home and I've also got these system hang ups with no Forte and no Minimoog being installed on the system.

pedrosura
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:44 pm

Re: Arturia Minimoog causes Forte to crash completely

Postby pedrosura » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:58 am

Well that`s interesting. I can confirm that the Mahogany skin (on my system) was causing the crash. Now it works flawlessly. Really a neat program. I can´t recommended enough.


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